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hexmixso i've seen a few posts about writing dialogue and more general writing tips on tumblr, and have gotten asks when i've done writer/writing ask memes that often bring up things like writing advice, and so it's been something i come back to every now and then, even tho i also think i'm pretty bad at giving writing advice in general. part of this is because i have almost never vocalized my writing process in any way. another part is that, while i've taken a handful of classes (in high school and college) on creative writing, i'm not very good at keeping any kind of technical terminology in my head, so talking about certain things (poetry in particular) is very hard for me. there's also the whole 'subjective' aspect to any creative process, both in what is considered "good" advice as well as in what works for each person.
BUT! i do kind of want to try and give it a shot, especially if anything i say might be helpful to someone. since the most recent of these posts i saw was about dialogue i've been thinking about that the most, so wanted to start there. i haven't really written original fiction in years, so this is going to be fanfic-heavy, and all my examples will be coming from fic i've written, but i think that everything i could say could be equally applied to original fiction. probably lol. anyway, here we go:
the post i saw brought up balancing how people talk irl with what is effective for the story, which i'd agree with. one of my pet peeves in reading fic is when characters just speak in memes, as in literally just repeating memes at each other verbatim, regardless of how any of it works with the characters or story. this isn't even a crackfic thing; crackfic gets an obvious pass. no, most of the time i see this it's being used as a shortcut to comedy: either the writer genuinely thinks this is funny or they don't know how to do comedy beyond regurgitating memes. or both, i guess. the main issue here tho is the fact that there's clearly no thought going in to how the characters being written would talk. or even a pretty basic: would this character have any reason to know this meme? like this seems pretty pedantic lol but i really can't stress how often i've seen this occur in fic that is otherwise taking itself seriously, NOT crackfic.
one of the most basic pieces of advice i can give to writing dialogue, or even character voice in general, is to actually sit down and think about whether a character would say something or not. "he wouldn't fucking say that" is a meme for a reason, after all. this isn't even necessarily an issue of if something is in character or not, but can literally mean "would this character even know this fact/word/reference?" some examples:
>>when writing Ethan Resident Evil i give him the pop culture knowledge of my (slightly) older cousin. she's a few years older than him but like same age bracket. if it's a reference she'd understand i assume it's something Ethan would understand. this being both bc of the age thing but also bc i characterize Ethan as just a bit nerdy, and my cousin is also just a bit nerdy. so like does Ethan know (and probably like) SpongeBob? yep. does he know what Roblox is? absolutely not. (and would he ever say "mommy milkers"? that's a big nope, friend.)
>>when writing Karl Resident Evil i definitively end his pop culture knowledge at the 1990s. i also treat it as severely limited, as in he is getting his knowledge of the outside world from the movies Moreau has access to (this is a personal headcanon of mine) as well as from whatever books are available in the village (which i cut off at around the 1950s; also a personal headcanon). i pay careful attention to what slang and idiomatic expressions he uses as well and will look up how early certain phrases/words were first used to make sure it's something he would have heard and been familiar with. so like i think it's in 'creep on creepin' on' that i have him use "juke," and i only have him use that bc i made sure its current meaning would have been the same around the 1950s (the answer was yes).
>>Jesse Evil West is even more restrictive: i have to cut off everything with him at the late 19th century. i'm not like, super strict about historical accuracy with him bc, well, Evil West is hardly concerned with historical accuracy, but to make him sound "authentic" i'm also not going to have him using a bunch of anachronisms. this even carries over to what words i use when i have him talk about fucking: i have Jesse use 'prick' for penis 90% of the time, over cock/dick (which are my regular go-tos), bc it "felt" more authentic to me to do so. [note: i did not look up period-specific sex terms, it's all vibes there lmao. i did look up period specific lingerie for uhhhh Jesse fic reasons tho.]
a lot of this is just thinking "what words would this character use? would there be certain words/slang they preferred?" and then making a decision for yourself one way or the other (provided there's no canon precedent.) there's also the level of "what kinds of knowledge does this character have and how much knowledge do i also have to have about those things to make them sound believable/authentic?" which means i don't write scientist characters much lmao. Karl is the closest i've come and even then i have had to research SO MUCH based on what knowledge i think he'd have on certain subjects, or like even to determine how much he would/would not know about different things.
but, suffice to say: if you are paying attention to the way characters talk about things + their knowledge (or lack thereof) of different things you are already going to be writing characters that talk more "naturally," both in terms of dialogue and narration.
(and side note for writing original characters: you should be deciding all of these things for your characters. what are their limitations/skillsets/interests and how does that reflect in the types of words they use/things they say? once you've determined how your character is going to talk, the key is to be consistent.
original character example: my OC Mrs. Chalmers from spirit hat is basically an amalgamation of several older southern ladies i worked with for years at JPC. she talks like these women would have talked and i've given her roughly the same kind of pop culture and general knowledge these women would have had. when she speaks i can clearly hear how she sounds in my head. i also have a huge advantage here--as i do with Jesse--because i have lived in the southern US my entire life and i know how southern people talk as well as the kinds of expressions they use. in Mrs. Chalmers' instance this means i know what a southern white woman in her late 60s would sound like when she talks. when i write her i stick to that: i limit myself to word preferences and general knowledge i think someone like that would have; what feels "authentic" to that character.)
if you don't know how a character should sound, say for example you're not from the southern US, the only thing you can really do is research: listen to how people talk or just ask someone who would know. Jesse is stupidly easy for me to write bc of where i grew up but also bc i grew up watching a heck of a lot of westerns. i know how that character type is "supposed" to sound, from the accent to the slang and ways he expresses himself.
[NOTE: the strongest dialogue advice i'd like to give is NEVER use phonetic accents. this means don't try to write out how an accent sounds to you, but just write what the character is saying. sometimes there will be ways you can still indicate the accent via things like syntax and grammar, even diction. if you're worried it's not coming through just indicate it directly: "so-and-so spoke with a slight German accent." this will always be preferable to accidentally doing a racist caricature bc you're using phonetic accents.]
so when i'm writing Jesse i am often using incorrect grammar in both his dialogue and the narration (i typically write in third person limited pov), and i consider this cheating a bit. doing something like this is only possible with Jesse (and the Bakers; i use the same trick for writing them) bc it is specifically how many lower class southern people talk. it's like a shortcut bc it is automatically conveying a visible difference in how a character is talking to the reader, the same way a phonetic accent would but without the same level of insufferableness [note: this is subjective af lmao]. again, this is really only possible bc i know what is going to sound natural for a character that speaks in this way.
in comparison, i struggle TREMENDOUSLY to write Chester Evil West. i know virtually no Irish slang, especially not period-specific Irish slang, and i also can't do an Irish accent to save my life, so i have to REALLY work to "hear" Chester when i write him. like i went back to replay the tutorial level in Evil West just so i could listen to how he talks and get screenshots of his in-game notes for reference. there are certain lines and words that he says that i replay in my head (or pull up a clip on youtube) when i'm writing him to try to keep myself on track. (i did this for Heisenberg too btw. Neil Newbon's voice for him is so dang weird i had to keep listening to him to get a good enough sense of it. this just means i've watched that "mother mirander is gonna love you" scene a billion heckin times.)
but again, writing more natural dialogue is gonna be easier if you can pin down how a character talks. or, if you're not sure, sit and think about it till you figure it out. and yeah do research when you need to! absolutely no harm in it!
now, if we're talking about "naturalness" in terms of "this is what a living person would sound like" i think that is often less important than "this is what this specific character would sound like." no one is going to talk like Heisenberg irl, lbr. this rule is more applicable for a character like Ethan (like even with Jesse, while i try to keep him sounding 'natural' i also let him say some shit i consider deeply cliché that i don't really think a real person during the 19th century in the american west would say; it makes sense for the genre and the TYPE of character he is tho, so it Doesn't Matter.)
and for characters like Ethan, whose whole deal is He's Just A Normal Dude, the goal still isn't "jot down what some rando on the bus would say," but "this feels natural for this dude in this situation," or even "yeah the vibes for this are Correct." it's going to be a matter of what feels right to you, as well as what works for the story you're writing.
"naturalness" can also come down to how you are conveying information: people often deride exposition-heavy dialogue for a reason. this isn't to say never relate background info via dialogue, but pay extra attention to when you're doing it, WHY you're doing it, and how the characters are talking while they're expositing, etc.
overall tho i think that most "naturalness" wrt dialogue is just going to come from being mindful about how a specific character talks. with certain characters that will mean asking "is this something someone would say irl?"
but this is so dang long WHOOPS. anyway if i think of anything else that might be helpful i'll add on later. also i am 100% open to any questions about anything. idk if i'll be able to explain things to anyone's satisfaction but i am willing to try and would be happy to help if i can!
BUT! i do kind of want to try and give it a shot, especially if anything i say might be helpful to someone. since the most recent of these posts i saw was about dialogue i've been thinking about that the most, so wanted to start there. i haven't really written original fiction in years, so this is going to be fanfic-heavy, and all my examples will be coming from fic i've written, but i think that everything i could say could be equally applied to original fiction. probably lol. anyway, here we go:
the post i saw brought up balancing how people talk irl with what is effective for the story, which i'd agree with. one of my pet peeves in reading fic is when characters just speak in memes, as in literally just repeating memes at each other verbatim, regardless of how any of it works with the characters or story. this isn't even a crackfic thing; crackfic gets an obvious pass. no, most of the time i see this it's being used as a shortcut to comedy: either the writer genuinely thinks this is funny or they don't know how to do comedy beyond regurgitating memes. or both, i guess. the main issue here tho is the fact that there's clearly no thought going in to how the characters being written would talk. or even a pretty basic: would this character have any reason to know this meme? like this seems pretty pedantic lol but i really can't stress how often i've seen this occur in fic that is otherwise taking itself seriously, NOT crackfic.
one of the most basic pieces of advice i can give to writing dialogue, or even character voice in general, is to actually sit down and think about whether a character would say something or not. "he wouldn't fucking say that" is a meme for a reason, after all. this isn't even necessarily an issue of if something is in character or not, but can literally mean "would this character even know this fact/word/reference?" some examples:
>>when writing Ethan Resident Evil i give him the pop culture knowledge of my (slightly) older cousin. she's a few years older than him but like same age bracket. if it's a reference she'd understand i assume it's something Ethan would understand. this being both bc of the age thing but also bc i characterize Ethan as just a bit nerdy, and my cousin is also just a bit nerdy. so like does Ethan know (and probably like) SpongeBob? yep. does he know what Roblox is? absolutely not. (and would he ever say "mommy milkers"? that's a big nope, friend.)
>>when writing Karl Resident Evil i definitively end his pop culture knowledge at the 1990s. i also treat it as severely limited, as in he is getting his knowledge of the outside world from the movies Moreau has access to (this is a personal headcanon of mine) as well as from whatever books are available in the village (which i cut off at around the 1950s; also a personal headcanon). i pay careful attention to what slang and idiomatic expressions he uses as well and will look up how early certain phrases/words were first used to make sure it's something he would have heard and been familiar with. so like i think it's in 'creep on creepin' on' that i have him use "juke," and i only have him use that bc i made sure its current meaning would have been the same around the 1950s (the answer was yes).
>>Jesse Evil West is even more restrictive: i have to cut off everything with him at the late 19th century. i'm not like, super strict about historical accuracy with him bc, well, Evil West is hardly concerned with historical accuracy, but to make him sound "authentic" i'm also not going to have him using a bunch of anachronisms. this even carries over to what words i use when i have him talk about fucking: i have Jesse use 'prick' for penis 90% of the time, over cock/dick (which are my regular go-tos), bc it "felt" more authentic to me to do so. [note: i did not look up period-specific sex terms, it's all vibes there lmao. i did look up period specific lingerie for uhhhh Jesse fic reasons tho.]
a lot of this is just thinking "what words would this character use? would there be certain words/slang they preferred?" and then making a decision for yourself one way or the other (provided there's no canon precedent.) there's also the level of "what kinds of knowledge does this character have and how much knowledge do i also have to have about those things to make them sound believable/authentic?" which means i don't write scientist characters much lmao. Karl is the closest i've come and even then i have had to research SO MUCH based on what knowledge i think he'd have on certain subjects, or like even to determine how much he would/would not know about different things.
but, suffice to say: if you are paying attention to the way characters talk about things + their knowledge (or lack thereof) of different things you are already going to be writing characters that talk more "naturally," both in terms of dialogue and narration.
(and side note for writing original characters: you should be deciding all of these things for your characters. what are their limitations/skillsets/interests and how does that reflect in the types of words they use/things they say? once you've determined how your character is going to talk, the key is to be consistent.
original character example: my OC Mrs. Chalmers from spirit hat is basically an amalgamation of several older southern ladies i worked with for years at JPC. she talks like these women would have talked and i've given her roughly the same kind of pop culture and general knowledge these women would have had. when she speaks i can clearly hear how she sounds in my head. i also have a huge advantage here--as i do with Jesse--because i have lived in the southern US my entire life and i know how southern people talk as well as the kinds of expressions they use. in Mrs. Chalmers' instance this means i know what a southern white woman in her late 60s would sound like when she talks. when i write her i stick to that: i limit myself to word preferences and general knowledge i think someone like that would have; what feels "authentic" to that character.)
if you don't know how a character should sound, say for example you're not from the southern US, the only thing you can really do is research: listen to how people talk or just ask someone who would know. Jesse is stupidly easy for me to write bc of where i grew up but also bc i grew up watching a heck of a lot of westerns. i know how that character type is "supposed" to sound, from the accent to the slang and ways he expresses himself.
[NOTE: the strongest dialogue advice i'd like to give is NEVER use phonetic accents. this means don't try to write out how an accent sounds to you, but just write what the character is saying. sometimes there will be ways you can still indicate the accent via things like syntax and grammar, even diction. if you're worried it's not coming through just indicate it directly: "so-and-so spoke with a slight German accent." this will always be preferable to accidentally doing a racist caricature bc you're using phonetic accents.]
so when i'm writing Jesse i am often using incorrect grammar in both his dialogue and the narration (i typically write in third person limited pov), and i consider this cheating a bit. doing something like this is only possible with Jesse (and the Bakers; i use the same trick for writing them) bc it is specifically how many lower class southern people talk. it's like a shortcut bc it is automatically conveying a visible difference in how a character is talking to the reader, the same way a phonetic accent would but without the same level of insufferableness [note: this is subjective af lmao]. again, this is really only possible bc i know what is going to sound natural for a character that speaks in this way.
in comparison, i struggle TREMENDOUSLY to write Chester Evil West. i know virtually no Irish slang, especially not period-specific Irish slang, and i also can't do an Irish accent to save my life, so i have to REALLY work to "hear" Chester when i write him. like i went back to replay the tutorial level in Evil West just so i could listen to how he talks and get screenshots of his in-game notes for reference. there are certain lines and words that he says that i replay in my head (or pull up a clip on youtube) when i'm writing him to try to keep myself on track. (i did this for Heisenberg too btw. Neil Newbon's voice for him is so dang weird i had to keep listening to him to get a good enough sense of it. this just means i've watched that "mother mirander is gonna love you" scene a billion heckin times.)
but again, writing more natural dialogue is gonna be easier if you can pin down how a character talks. or, if you're not sure, sit and think about it till you figure it out. and yeah do research when you need to! absolutely no harm in it!
now, if we're talking about "naturalness" in terms of "this is what a living person would sound like" i think that is often less important than "this is what this specific character would sound like." no one is going to talk like Heisenberg irl, lbr. this rule is more applicable for a character like Ethan (like even with Jesse, while i try to keep him sounding 'natural' i also let him say some shit i consider deeply cliché that i don't really think a real person during the 19th century in the american west would say; it makes sense for the genre and the TYPE of character he is tho, so it Doesn't Matter.)
and for characters like Ethan, whose whole deal is He's Just A Normal Dude, the goal still isn't "jot down what some rando on the bus would say," but "this feels natural for this dude in this situation," or even "yeah the vibes for this are Correct." it's going to be a matter of what feels right to you, as well as what works for the story you're writing.
"naturalness" can also come down to how you are conveying information: people often deride exposition-heavy dialogue for a reason. this isn't to say never relate background info via dialogue, but pay extra attention to when you're doing it, WHY you're doing it, and how the characters are talking while they're expositing, etc.
overall tho i think that most "naturalness" wrt dialogue is just going to come from being mindful about how a specific character talks. with certain characters that will mean asking "is this something someone would say irl?"
but this is so dang long WHOOPS. anyway if i think of anything else that might be helpful i'll add on later. also i am 100% open to any questions about anything. idk if i'll be able to explain things to anyone's satisfaction but i am willing to try and would be happy to help if i can!
no subject
Date: 2024-06-07 06:28 am (UTC)in comparison, i struggle TREMENDOUSLY to write Chester Evil West. i know virtually no Irish slang, especially not period-specific Irish slang, and i also can't do an Irish accent to save my life, so i have to REALLY work to "hear" Chester when i write him.
I had a similar struggle when writing Josh Stevenson of Waterloo Road, who's from around the Manchester area and uses speech patterns that don't feel intuitive to me (as a speaker of 'standard' British English) at all. At one point in canon, for example, Josh says, 'We was mates! I weren't just 'anging 'round with you so I could jump on you.' Dialects tend to be grammatically consistent, so I knew he wouldn't just be using 'was' and 'were' randomly, but I really struggled to pin down what grammatical rules he was using!
In my fanfiction, I ended up going with what felt right based on listening to Josh's dialogue in canon, so I included lines like 'She weren't pretending' or 'It was horrible, what they was shouting at you'. I can't say with confidence that I got it right, though. Really, I should have run my fics past a Mancunian, but I didn't have one to hand!
(Hello! I spotted you over at Jukebox June, went 'holy shit, a Final Fantasy VIII fan' and ran over to poke through your journal.)
no subject
Date: 2024-06-07 11:49 pm (UTC)as for characters speaking in memes: i've mostly seen it in one particular fandom that also happens to have a lot of younger fans, which is kind of part of the reason i feel like this happens, like it feels like it's coming from less experienced writers. this is just my best guess for why i see it happening so much in this one fandom at least lol. in any case i'm glad you haven't seen it in the wild! there's nothing like reading about a character who's been cut off from the rest of the world since like 1912 with sudden comprehensive knowledge of the top ten internet memes of every year since 2018.
(also hello! absolutely delighted to meet another FFVIII fan! :D i've been going through your Balamb Garden neocities and just wanted to let you know that it's a perfect website & that i had a lot of fun navigating around it c: also just deeply amused that i first played VIII at around the same age as you with the exact battle strategy: not understanding how to junction magic and just spamming GFs to get through every battle lmao.)
no subject
Date: 2024-06-08 06:36 am (UTC)I'm curious about what this fandom is now! I wouldn't be surprised if it's a more common habit among younger fans.
Come to think of it, there is one place I've seen memes referenced by characters who shouldn't know them, although that wasn't in fanfiction; it was in the sci-fi novel Gideon the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir. I enjoyed reading it, but I always got slightly jarred out of the story when I recognised a meme reference!
Aww, thank you so much for your kind words about my website! It's been a blast to work on; I'm glad you enjoyed it. Did you suffer the same fate I did on my first playthrough, i.e. reaching Adel, realising you can't spam GFs without hitting Rinoa, and having to restart the entire game?
no subject
Date: 2024-06-10 07:11 am (UTC)and i really can't say how glad i am you had the same issue with Gideon that i did lol. i've only read the first two books, and i thought the second book was worse about it than the first, but i had to physically set the book down a few times bc of the out of place meme usage. i loved the books aside from that! but yeah, stuff like that is definitely jarring.
lmao to be completely honest with you i may not have even made it that far on my first playthrough of VIII. i know i got stuck in the sewers in Deling for a painfully long time for the most ridiculous reason (think you need to click on the door to get out and i just...didn't? making the game harder than it needed to be lol).